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	<title>Comments on: The Island of Dr Moreau by H G Wells</title>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Clare. Again no!Nothing to do with Darwin.
Can&#039;t remember what happened to Pip but Magwitch may have fought life&#039;s battles well and risen to the &quot;top&quot; but he had no progeny so a complete Darwinian failure. The individual organism does not enjoy success in life except by the ability to produce many successful descendents - that pass on the genes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clare. Again no!Nothing to do with Darwin.<br />
Can&#8217;t remember what happened to Pip but Magwitch may have fought life&#8217;s battles well and risen to the &#8220;top&#8221; but he had no progeny so a complete Darwinian failure. The individual organism does not enjoy success in life except by the ability to produce many successful descendents &#8211; that pass on the genes.</p>
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		<title>By: Clare</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you Michael for finding this link! I shall read it more closely but am glad that my hunch that Beatrix Potter was more interested in palaeontology and the natural sciences than you might think, was right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Michael for finding this link! I shall read it more closely but am glad that my hunch that Beatrix Potter was more interested in palaeontology and the natural sciences than you might think, was right.</p>
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		<title>By: Clare</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-42</guid>
		<description>OK - well is anyone interested in how a novelist like Charles Dicken might have been influenced? How about &quot;Great Expectations&quot; for an example of the lower orders fighting life&#039;s battles and rising to the top?  Both Pip and Magwitch the convict are examples of this. And what about Estella and the way Miss Havisham uses Estella&#039;s beauty to attract men and then cruelly rebuff them?  I&#039;d like to hear if anyone sees echoes of Darwin this this novel or any others of Dickens...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK &#8211; well is anyone interested in how a novelist like Charles Dicken might have been influenced? How about &#8220;Great Expectations&#8221; for an example of the lower orders fighting life&#8217;s battles and rising to the top?  Both Pip and Magwitch the convict are examples of this. And what about Estella and the way Miss Havisham uses Estella&#8217;s beauty to attract men and then cruelly rebuff them?  I&#8217;d like to hear if anyone sees echoes of Darwin this this novel or any others of Dickens&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-40</guid>
		<description>No. Well you did ask!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No. Well you did ask!</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Neither Moreau&#039;s surgery or Professor Higgins work are &quot;Darwinian&quot;. They are about changes to an individual  - Darwinian evolution is about accumulating changes from generation to generation by descent. A body builder does not pass on big muscles to his/her children. Therefore if Wells was trying to use Darwin&#039;s ideas he was confused. Also &quot;class&quot; , &quot;caste&quot; and, in human societies at least, &quot;hierarcy&quot; are not Darwinian but products of unequal access to resources - products of a non egalitarian social system. To say otherwise leads to some very dark places and revisits Germany in the 1930s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neither Moreau&#8217;s surgery or Professor Higgins work are &#8220;Darwinian&#8221;. They are about changes to an individual  &#8211; Darwinian evolution is about accumulating changes from generation to generation by descent. A body builder does not pass on big muscles to his/her children. Therefore if Wells was trying to use Darwin&#8217;s ideas he was confused. Also &#8220;class&#8221; , &#8220;caste&#8221; and, in human societies at least, &#8220;hierarcy&#8221; are not Darwinian but products of unequal access to resources &#8211; products of a non egalitarian social system. To say otherwise leads to some very dark places and revisits Germany in the 1930s.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael D. Barton</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael D. Barton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-38</guid>
		<description>Interesting write up on the Linnean Society&#039;s website about Potter&#039;s interest/work in science:
http://www.linnean.org/index.php?id=104</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting write up on the Linnean Society&#8217;s website about Potter&#8217;s interest/work in science:<br />
<a href="http://www.linnean.org/index.php?id=104" rel="nofollow">http://www.linnean.org/index.php?id=104</a></p>
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		<title>By: Clare</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Reading the Island of Dr Moreau made me think of other books published around that time in which animals became &quot; characters&quot;. It does seem that Malcolm&#039;s quote about &quot;..the unmistakeable mark of the beast&quot; did begin to influence much popoular literature. Does anyone think that Beatrix Potter have been said to have been influenced in some ways by the ideas of Charles Darwin? She published her stories before the First World War and had worked on them for years before publication. We know that she was well-educated and the daughter of an MP so most likely Darwin’s ideas would have been discussed in her home. We are all familiar with her illustrations of animals dressed in human clothing. However it is worth pointing out that the animals in her stories progress to be steadily more human and to interact more with mainstream human life. Her first animal characters like Peter Rabbit a Fierce Bad Rabbit and Mrs Tiggywinkle are clearly depicted in an animal setting – living under the roots of trees or in holes in the ground and their activities are carried on somewhat furtively even though they wear clothes and have human sensitivities. However domesticated animals like pigs are shown as much closer to the boundaries of humanity. In The Tale of Pigling Bland the pigs go off to find apprenticeships at market and interact with humans throughout. They are given papers to show to a policemen and they are treated by society rather like children – spoken to by tradesmen and taken into houses to spend the night. Bland performs chores for his host, covers him up when he falls asleep drunk and very much behaves as a young apprentice-boy. A female pig in the story even sings and dances. Potter is obviously using her animal stories as “instructive tales” to warn children of various dangers – in this story abduction – and the very idea that animals could be used to depict human dilemmas is interesting.. Does anyone agree that these stories and pictures could show the influence of some of Darwin’s ideas?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading the Island of Dr Moreau made me think of other books published around that time in which animals became &#8221; characters&#8221;. It does seem that Malcolm&#8217;s quote about &#8220;..the unmistakeable mark of the beast&#8221; did begin to influence much popoular literature. Does anyone think that Beatrix Potter have been said to have been influenced in some ways by the ideas of Charles Darwin? She published her stories before the First World War and had worked on them for years before publication. We know that she was well-educated and the daughter of an MP so most likely Darwin’s ideas would have been discussed in her home. We are all familiar with her illustrations of animals dressed in human clothing. However it is worth pointing out that the animals in her stories progress to be steadily more human and to interact more with mainstream human life. Her first animal characters like Peter Rabbit a Fierce Bad Rabbit and Mrs Tiggywinkle are clearly depicted in an animal setting – living under the roots of trees or in holes in the ground and their activities are carried on somewhat furtively even though they wear clothes and have human sensitivities. However domesticated animals like pigs are shown as much closer to the boundaries of humanity. In The Tale of Pigling Bland the pigs go off to find apprenticeships at market and interact with humans throughout. They are given papers to show to a policemen and they are treated by society rather like children – spoken to by tradesmen and taken into houses to spend the night. Bland performs chores for his host, covers him up when he falls asleep drunk and very much behaves as a young apprentice-boy. A female pig in the story even sings and dances. Potter is obviously using her animal stories as “instructive tales” to warn children of various dangers – in this story abduction – and the very idea that animals could be used to depict human dilemmas is interesting.. Does anyone agree that these stories and pictures could show the influence of some of Darwin’s ideas?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael D. Barton</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael D. Barton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Clare said &quot;The novel raises echoes of Darwin.&quot; Indeed. 

----------

In the introduction: &quot;There is at least this much in its behalf: my uncle passed out of human knowledge about latitude 5°s. and longitude 105°e., and reappeared in the same part of the ocean after a space of eleven months.&quot;

While the editor of the version of Moreau I have notes that the coordinates are near the Galapagos Islands, this is incorrect. Look them up and you will see it falls in the eastern part of the island of Sumatra (in present-day Indonesia), in a region that Alfred Russel Wallace (the co-discoverer of natural selection) traveled and collected natural history specimens. Interesting.

----------

Invoking the naturalistic nature of life (chance, randomness) in chapter 4 (At the Schooner&#039;s Rail): 

&quot;If I may say it,&quot; said I [Prendick], after a time, &quot;you have saved my life.&quot;

&quot;Chance,&quot; he [Montgomery] answered.  &quot;Just chance.&quot;

&quot;I prefer to make my thanks to the accessible agent.&quot;

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Materialism (man is just an animal, just body, no soul) in chapter 5 (The Man Who Had Nowhere to Go): 

&quot;Hunger and a lack of blood-corpuscles take all the manhood from a man.&quot;

----------

It&#039;s interesting to note that Wells attended the Royal College of Science in 1884 under Thomas Henry Huxley, better known as Darwin&#039;s Bulldog.

----------

Island biology in chapter 6 (The Evil-Looking Boatmen), invoking Malthusian principles maybe:

&quot; &#039;Increase and multiply, my friends, &#039;said Montgomery. &#039;Replenish the island. Hitherto we&#039;ve had a certain lack of meat here.&#039; &quot;

----------

In chapter 9 (The Thing in the Forest):

&quot;Each of these creatures, despite its human form, its rag of clothing, and the rough humanity of its bodily form, had woven into it--into its movements, into the expression of its countenance, into its whole presence--some now irresistible suggestion of a hog, a swinish taint, the unmistakable mark of the beast.&quot;

Darwin, in the Descent of Man (1871): &quot;Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin.&quot;

----------

I have yet to finish this book (and it&#039;s July already), but I wanted to share these bits from the book that struck me in a Darwinian fashion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clare said &#8220;The novel raises echoes of Darwin.&#8221; Indeed. </p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>In the introduction: &#8220;There is at least this much in its behalf: my uncle passed out of human knowledge about latitude 5°s. and longitude 105°e., and reappeared in the same part of the ocean after a space of eleven months.&#8221;</p>
<p>While the editor of the version of Moreau I have notes that the coordinates are near the Galapagos Islands, this is incorrect. Look them up and you will see it falls in the eastern part of the island of Sumatra (in present-day Indonesia), in a region that Alfred Russel Wallace (the co-discoverer of natural selection) traveled and collected natural history specimens. Interesting.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>Invoking the naturalistic nature of life (chance, randomness) in chapter 4 (At the Schooner&#8217;s Rail): </p>
<p>&#8220;If I may say it,&#8221; said I [Prendick], after a time, &#8220;you have saved my life.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Chance,&#8221; he [Montgomery] answered.  &#8220;Just chance.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;I prefer to make my thanks to the accessible agent.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>Materialism (man is just an animal, just body, no soul) in chapter 5 (The Man Who Had Nowhere to Go): </p>
<p>&#8220;Hunger and a lack of blood-corpuscles take all the manhood from a man.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to note that Wells attended the Royal College of Science in 1884 under Thomas Henry Huxley, better known as Darwin&#8217;s Bulldog.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>Island biology in chapter 6 (The Evil-Looking Boatmen), invoking Malthusian principles maybe:</p>
<p>&#8221; &#8216;Increase and multiply, my friends, &#8217;said Montgomery. &#8216;Replenish the island. Hitherto we&#8217;ve had a certain lack of meat here.&#8217; &#8221;</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>In chapter 9 (The Thing in the Forest):</p>
<p>&#8220;Each of these creatures, despite its human form, its rag of clothing, and the rough humanity of its bodily form, had woven into it&#8211;into its movements, into the expression of its countenance, into its whole presence&#8211;some now irresistible suggestion of a hog, a swinish taint, the unmistakable mark of the beast.&#8221;</p>
<p>Darwin, in the Descent of Man (1871): &#8220;Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>I have yet to finish this book (and it&#8217;s July already), but I wanted to share these bits from the book that struck me in a Darwinian fashion.</p>
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		<title>By: Clare Cambridge</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Cambridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-34</guid>
		<description>This novel really caught my attention and I enjoyed it even though I wasn;t quite sure of the author’s purpose . H.G. Wells is masterly at setting an atmosphere of mystery and strange circumstance – there are overtones of Rider Haggard and even a bit of Conrad in the exotic setting with “Fallen from Grace “ characters – the drunken sot of a sea-captain, the debauched medical student who can “never go back” to civilisation.

There are overtones right through of novels of Empire – the White man “going native” when he is too far from England. That is an obvious allusion but maybe the novel is also hinting at social engineering. How far are the gross experiments of Dr Moreau from the experiment of Professor Henry Higgins in changing a London flower-girl into an aristocrat? The idea of educating the masses so that they could better “Fight Life’s struggles” was very prevalent at the time with little idea that anything much could be learnt in return from “The Lower Orders”.  I felt this in the novel. You do get a feeling that the Beast Folk are another race of people with their own civilisation – just like some of the native people of the islands ruled by the British Imperial system. Well individualises them by giving them names – the Hyena Swine, the Leopard-Man and the Little Sloth Creature who seems like a child, at one stage trying to hold Prendicks hand.   They have their own little plots and factions as is obvious when the scientist accuses one of  “drinking blood” but Prendick knows that others have been involved.  The reader cannot help feeling pity for these poor creatures – flayed, cloned, their tongues split to make them speak with Moreau tossing ethics aside in a way that presages the experiments of Josef Mengele in Hitler’s concentration camps.

The novel raises echoes of Darwin – there are times when Prendick becomes so used to the beast folk that he almost thinks them normal – particularly the females who shroud themselves in white robes. When the medical student has his “Bank Holiday” (which leads to total collapse), he goes to join a trio of beast folk down by the sea-shore with some lissom white –shrouded figures among them. You do get the feeling of “Class” and “Caste” and “Hierarchy”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This novel really caught my attention and I enjoyed it even though I wasn;t quite sure of the author’s purpose . H.G. Wells is masterly at setting an atmosphere of mystery and strange circumstance – there are overtones of Rider Haggard and even a bit of Conrad in the exotic setting with “Fallen from Grace “ characters – the drunken sot of a sea-captain, the debauched medical student who can “never go back” to civilisation.</p>
<p>There are overtones right through of novels of Empire – the White man “going native” when he is too far from England. That is an obvious allusion but maybe the novel is also hinting at social engineering. How far are the gross experiments of Dr Moreau from the experiment of Professor Henry Higgins in changing a London flower-girl into an aristocrat? The idea of educating the masses so that they could better “Fight Life’s struggles” was very prevalent at the time with little idea that anything much could be learnt in return from “The Lower Orders”.  I felt this in the novel. You do get a feeling that the Beast Folk are another race of people with their own civilisation – just like some of the native people of the islands ruled by the British Imperial system. Well individualises them by giving them names – the Hyena Swine, the Leopard-Man and the Little Sloth Creature who seems like a child, at one stage trying to hold Prendicks hand.   They have their own little plots and factions as is obvious when the scientist accuses one of  “drinking blood” but Prendick knows that others have been involved.  The reader cannot help feeling pity for these poor creatures – flayed, cloned, their tongues split to make them speak with Moreau tossing ethics aside in a way that presages the experiments of Josef Mengele in Hitler’s concentration camps.</p>
<p>The novel raises echoes of Darwin – there are times when Prendick becomes so used to the beast folk that he almost thinks them normal – particularly the females who shroud themselves in white robes. When the medical student has his “Bank Holiday” (which leads to total collapse), he goes to join a trio of beast folk down by the sea-shore with some lissom white –shrouded figures among them. You do get the feeling of “Class” and “Caste” and “Hierarchy”</p>
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		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/get-involved-online/book-club/the-island-of-dr-moreau/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darwinendlessforms.org/?page_id=1184#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Wells seems to be exploring the biblical story of creation too. Dr Moreau plays &#039;God&#039;, creating life forms in his own image, that of man, on an island that represents the garden of Eden perhaps. He expects obedience of his creations. They chant &#039;laws&#039; &amp; regard him as their Master. Without him, they revert to their animal instincts &amp; evil ways.  Is Wells commenting that Life forms are not made but evolve slowly over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wells seems to be exploring the biblical story of creation too. Dr Moreau plays &#8216;God&#8217;, creating life forms in his own image, that of man, on an island that represents the garden of Eden perhaps. He expects obedience of his creations. They chant &#8216;laws&#8217; &amp; regard him as their Master. Without him, they revert to their animal instincts &amp; evil ways.  Is Wells commenting that Life forms are not made but evolve slowly over time.</p>
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